Login   Sign Up 
 


Site Search.


New Members
  Roland Auzet (22/11)
  Flaute (20/11)
  M.Akram (20/11)
  margaretmoss12 (18/11)
  aldymf91 (17/11)

   » Full C:T Members List


Other Resources
News Archive






Search Forums:
This 92 message thread spans 7 pages:  < <   1   2  [3]  4   5   6   7  > >  
  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Ben Mueller-Heaslip at 13:52 on 09 June 2008
 

It looks like we wrote variations on the same post at pretty-much the same time, Scott. Synchronized.

I's like to point out that wasn't over reacting to David though. It was James' piece that I was over reacting to this time. I know it's hard to keep track, and I'll try harder from now on to be clear about who I'm offending.

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  James McFadyen at 14:19 on 09 June 2008
 

OK, so how many non-musicians will buy these "composers" CD's?

I must admit that Classic FM is just prescribed 'classical music' and most non-musicians who like classical music just won't get soundscape 'sound' music. Thus it leaves the music for musicians, or more to the point musicians who 'get off' on listening to wierd noises.

As the saying goes, whatever floats your boat! Or.. one man's junk is anothers' treasure.


  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  scott_good at 14:35 on 09 June 2008
 

james,

have you actually taken the time to listen to these composers? you might like it.

scott



  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Ben Mueller-Heaslip at 15:39 on 09 June 2008
 

OK, so how many non-musicians will buy these "composers" CD's?

Is this relevant or even vaguely thoughtful? Taking the question on your own terms - i.e. recognition proves validity - these "composers" have achieved a significant degree of recognition by their work. Significant enough to earn your resentment.

I must admit that Classic FM is just prescribed 'classical music' and most non-musicians who like classical music just won't get soundscape 'sound' music...

As the saying goes, whatever floats your boat! Or.. one man's junk is anothers' treasure.

Even if you've listened to this music and disliked it profoundly - which you have every right to do! - doesn't its existance still contribute to your experience of art in a positive way?

Try a metaphor: this music is, to your taste, a thistle in a grass lawn (tolerable music) with some pretty flowers (music you like). How much do your resent the thistle? Enough to pull it up from your lawn? Sure, if you like. Enough to weed the thistles out of your neighbor's lawn? Enough to start a global campaign to eradicate thistles everywhere?

Or does the awareness of what you find ugly contribute to and expand your understanding of what you find beautiful?

Thus it leaves the music for musicians, or more to the point musicians who 'get off' on listening to wierd noises.

I suggest you consider the possibility that the world is not so black-and-white as you seem to think. There's significant variation in just the aesthetics of the composers we're nominally discussing, and they're a couple drops in an ocean of music that covers a huge range of audiences, some small and some quite large; some of which overlap and some that are very distinct and particular. But the simplistic "avant-garde vs pop culture" model doesn't exist in the way you're presenting it.

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Misuc at 22:31 on 09 June 2008
 

I have conducted some pretty dire choirs in my time. Tuneless braying and humming can be manageable but what is worst is when they try for the constricted wallowing 'arty' performances of some 'good' choirs. The thing is to find a way of getting to true feelings - this is particularly hard in countries with centuries' long traditions of hypocrisy. There is so much wonderful simple straight music of the 15th - 18th centuries which is most effective when passionately yelled - I have the impression that only after emptying the lungs in this way can one come to more subtle and delicate shades of emotion clearly and beautifully.

It's also a good idea to sing in a relaxed voice against drones, Indian-style, singing different intervals out-of-tune and grasually sliding them into tune or to do the reverse: start with a very nasal - singing a-e-i-o-u- the vowels and bringing out the change in overtones with each change of vowel almost like the Mongolian throat singing.

Of course, I'm not suggesting that one sings the repertoire in this manner, but it is striking how natural and in tune choirs can become in their 'normal' singing after such exercises. [One also learns the secrets to other music systems this way and opens the senses to different modes of musical experience, which helps avoid the parochial constipation of english (particularly church choirs - though I should add that the early music movement has done much to clear out the mess].

I would like to draw the attention of anybody interested to the vocal improvisations I have uploaded on to my 'showcase' (under Julian Silverman 'sound and fury (3)'. Unfortunately i have tried to upload different bits, but I think this is the only one which succeeded. This is a pity, because I don't think it's the best)) I am not boasting about them as compositions, but I was very impressed by what this small body of completely untrained and inexperienced non-singers came up with - it was like what they say about drama: that animals are the best actors, because they are not acting. Sometimes the same goes for musical performance. This kind of music making defies publication. it also defies classification being neither 'academic' nor 'populist' - 'modern' nor 'traditional'. It does not even necessarily consist of separate 'pieces' [musical 'objects' ] though there are possibilities in this direction.....

Incidentally, it is a curious paradox, isn't it? that big corporate business, in the form of Boosey & Hawkes doesn't exclusively go down-market towards James Macfadyen's 'real world', but rather towards the chic 'modernism' (if that is what it is) of the art world, and in any case to a narrow niche market. Business does not operate in ways which would seem obvious.

It would be liberating to try and get away from both ends of the market.


  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Account Closed at 08:10 on 10 June 2008
 

It is interesting to note the very different opinions and experiences of those in the UK and the US. The US publishing market is very different to that in the UK. For every publishing company in the UK, there are probably at least 20 in the US.

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  scott_good at 11:50 on 10 June 2008
 

Ben and I are Canadian.

We have a few small publishing companies here, but very few compared to the UK.

We do, however, have the Canadian Music Centre - http://www.musiccentre.ca/home.cfm, which is an excellent resource for composers here - and has made music available to you - check it out, excellent web site.

But yes, our opinions do differ, even at times from each other...imagine that...people with different ideas!

And hey, if you are so worried about the state of publishing in your country, maybe you should check out James' company - here he is on this forum letting you know about a service he is providing for your community. You two seem to be on the same page - here's the link - http://www.devilishpublishing.com/cat_choralvoice.htm - not much for vocal stuff yet, but I'm sure he is ready to take new submissions. Perhaps that wing of his business is ready to expand.

Have you considered that you can take matters into your own hands, rather than complain about the situation, and put down young artists who have worked hard to gain some recognition? That is the gist of what Ben and I are talking about, in our crazy "Canadian" ways.

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Misuc at 13:28 on 10 June 2008
 

I'm with Michael Moore here: Long live the Canadians! it is amazing how many ways ants and composers have found to emerge from beneath the foot of the giant who has stepped on your nest. There are some who have even managed to hitch a ride on a left boot and it would be demeaning to deride them for their effort and enterprise!

But let's look at who's wearing the boots. Those who have it at the back of their minds that one day they would like to help build a better nest might like to take the time and trouble to look through some basic facts:

Take Boosey's - who started this whole 'emerging composer' thing:

This is what has just happened (and the info is worth a few minutes' concentration) - it is not only UK composers who are affected, but all of Holland's teachers and civil service, it seems:

".....European mid-market private equity firm HgCapital has agreed to sell Boosey & Hawkes, a UK-headquartered classical music publishing and rights group, to IMAGEM MUSIC for approximately £126m.

Imagem Music is the music publishing fund of Stichting Pensioenfonds ABP and CP Masters.

Private equity firm, HgGapital had taken Boosey's over in 2003. "Boosey & Hawkes was in some difficulties as a public company and going private enabled us to make the radical changes necessary for the survival of the business.'

With €2bn under management, HgCapital focused on investments with an enterprise value in the £50-£500m range.

Imagem Music recently also acquired music rights catalogues from Universal Music Group, such as Zomba UK, Rondor UK, 19 Music and a major part of the BBC catalogue.

About ABP 
ABP is the world's third largest pension fund with EUR 217 billion under management.ABP is the pension fund for employers and employees in the service of the Dutch government and the educational sector with approximately 2.7 million participants.

“ABP is actively pursuing innovative investments,” commented Ronald Wuijster, head of Strategy and Research of ABP Investments. “The idea to enter into this type of investment was generated by our own organization and it is the first time ever that a fund has invested in music catalogs. Music publishing continues to be a robust and exciting business and we are delighted to be working with CP Masters. We will certainly look to continue expanding our investment in this very important area of the global music business, both in terms of acquisitions and infrastructure......”

So watch out, McFadyen! The real world is catching up. The better you do, the sooner they will take you over.

The major part of Britain's music publishing and sheet music shops have now been taken over by one multinational corporation. (Boosey's had been virtually alone in holding out against them)

".....Music Sales Group
Through its Music in Print division (MIP), the company owns or controls more than 175 UK retail outlets selling printed music and/or musical instruments. These stores account for some 20% of the total UK music retail business.

Music Sales provides a full range of music publications directly to some 30,000 schools, colleges, and universities

Music Sales owns and operates three major e-commerce websites: musicroom.com sheetmusicdirect.com msdealers.com
With headquarters in London, The Music Sales Group is Europe's largest publisher of printed music with offices all over the world.
We distribute music print products worldwide from centres in the UK, the US, Australia, Japan and throughout Europe.
Our Omnibus Press imprint is a world leader in books about music, covering everything from Grand Opera to contemporary pop music.
We manage and exploit the copyright of many thousands of songs and pieces of music contained in the numerous international catalogues we own. These include Campbell Connelly, The Sparta Florida Music Group, Bosworth & Co., Chester Music, Novello & Company, J. Curwen & Sons, G Schirmer, Edition Wilhelm Hansen and Unión Musical Ediciones (UME)......"

This has meant that many 'house' composers have been ditched, rival publishers excluded, prices artificially raised, independent music shops lost or monopolised etc.





  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  spoon2001 at 09:16 on 12 June 2008
 

As someone who is both a professional singer and composer, I am unsure what your argument is, David.

There is plenty of easy liturgical choral music being published here in the UK at the moment; think of Malcolm Archer, Grayston Ives and all the RSCM and Kevin Mayhew catalogues.

However, it is genuinely difficult to get "serious" choral music published unless you are a "name". Publishers are not as keen to take on little-known choral pieces as you might hope. The reason: most amateurs like singing stuff they know and don't necessarily want to be challenged.

It would seem to me that you have an axe to grind here in that your music might not be receiving the publicity it may, or indeed, may not, deserve. It also seems to me that you are bemoaning the fact that your choir are bad; fair enough, but there are also some really incredibly good groups around at the moment.

However, the honest question that begs asking is; why would composers want to write music for the sort of choir you describe? I find it one of the most soul-destroying parts of the job to get music performed to a bad standard by a group lacking in proficiency. It's difficult to retain any sort of integrity when you are forced to write for people that you know are going to destroy your piece technically and, perhaps,consequently, conceptually.

Believe me, I know...

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Account Closed at 11:23 on 12 June 2008
 

I'm sorry, but I really have to take issue with what you are saying.
There is plenty of easy liturgical choral music being published here in
the UK at the moment; think of Malcolm Archer, Grayston Ives and all the RSCM and Kevin Mayhew catalogues

Yes, I haven't said there isn't. What I have said is that there is far less 'accessible' choral music being published in the UK than the US.
It would seem to me that you have an axe to grind here in that your music might not be receiving the publicity it may, or indeed, may not, deserve

I find it sad that realistically no one is interested in publishing my music in UK; the country in which I have been brought up and in which I live; the country in which I have spent the best part of 20 years contributing to it's musical life. Yet the interest in my music in the US is far far greater. It gets sold, it gets performances, and people are geuinely interested in it.
It also seems to me that you are bemoaning the fact that your choir are bad; fair enough, but there are also some really incredibly good groups around at the moment

No, I'm not bemoaning this at all. My concern lies with the fact that companies such as Boosey and Hawkes, OUP, Novello etc. which once provided the backbone of our choral repertoire are moving further and further over to providing for what I consider to be a small minority of choirs who are able to perform these works (Cathedral and Collegiate choirs rather than Parish and church choirs).
However, the honest question that begs asking is; why would composers want to write music for the sort of choir you describe? I find it one of the most soul-destroying parts of the job to get music performed to a bad standard by a group lacking in proficiency. It's difficult to retain any sort of integrity when you are forced to write for people that you know are going to destroy your piece technically and, perhaps,consequently, conceptually

Sorry, but I think that is an awful attitude to take. We're not that bad; we do the best we can with the resources we have available. Just because we can't compete with Cathedral and Collegiate choirs, it surely shouldn't meant that we should give up? Those who take part get an enormous amount of enjoyment from it and I don't think any of us have the right to deny them that.

To clarify, I am not against the publication of new music - I welcome it. Schemes such as this are worthwhile. My concern lies with the fact that new and accessible music is being sidelined in favour of innovation. Also to clarify, I am not bemoaning the ability of our choir, and I am not grumbling about my own music.


  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  spoon2001 at 11:30 on 12 June 2008
 

Sure, I understand now a bit better what you are saying now you've clarified.

I'm not berating your choir. My point is the simple fact that there are very few composers who are prepared to write music that will be done badly. Consequently, they make a shedload of money out of it. Believe me, I know some of the big names very well and they really don't care.

John Rutter, when questioned as to why he doesn't write more artistically fulfilling music (because he obviously appreciates it) stated; "I like driving a new Jaguar."

Point made.

Finding a happy balance is where I want to settle!

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Misuc at 11:58 on 12 June 2008
 

I do appreciate the difficulties you are working under, David. I am not quite clear how Boosey's 'emerging composers' scheme relates to your problem, though. Are you suggesting there is only one little pot of commissions/publications and that the fact that the pot-owner is giving these three composers more opportunities stops him or anybody else from doing the same for you?

Perhaps what you call accessible is now very much a minority taste. Maybe more and more people are managing to expand their spiritual/musical horizons and Boosey's [ ="music publishing fund of Stichting Pensioenfonds ABP and CP Masters"]are simply cashing on that expansion before it goes too far?

After all the music division of the third largest pension fund in the world are hardly going to pour their investments down the drain, are they? [On second thoughts, maybe they're just poor gamblers! Look how their equivalents have 'lost' the pensions of millions of us right across the UK, Europe and the world and walked off with the proceeds!...]

Anyway I can now inform you that the little creative experiments I conducted some time ago with some untrained non-singers ('sound & fury') have now all been successfully uploaded. I repeat: I am not seeking credit for their imagination and flexibility - merely trying to show that it is much easier than you may think to discover/create a vast, limitless range of music which is accessible to people of all backgrounds and levels of competence: that what one calls 'competence' or 'accessibility' is maybe a matter of early-formed prejudice and narrow-mindedness on one's own part - something that can be overcome.

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  sbaird at 06:30 on 13 June 2008
 

Hello all.

Sarah here from Boosey & Hawkes.Other than the one gent who knows Anna, I just wondered if anyone else has heard the music of our emerging composers.

They each have myspace pages, if you'd like a sampling:

http://www.myspace.com/duyun
http://www.myspace.com/oscarbettison
http://www.myspace.com/annaclyne

And I have to say that I'm currently in Denver with Anna and she's positively lovely. Although we did make quite a miserable pool (billiard) team on Tuesday night.

As far as finding repertoire for your various choirs and ensembles, please feel free to give our promotion department a call. We are all trained musicians here and are happy to do some match-making to help you with your programming needs. There's music in our catalogs for everyone.

NY: 212 358 5300
UK: 44 (0)20 7054 7200

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  James McFadyen at 18:07 on 13 June 2008
 

Did I mention soundscape "composers" earlier? Yea, thought so!

  Re: Boosey`s Emerging Composer Program  Misuc at 18:42 on 13 June 2008
 

I suppose that, as composers, we should welcome a stranger in our midst, and thank her for avidly promoting her clients.

I have logged on to the links and tried to listen to the music they are presenting. Hardly innovative in any way. I could say more. But are you looking for our opinions? Would it make a difference? Or is it just for publicity?

This 92 message thread spans 7 pages:  < <   1   2  [3]  4   5   6   7  > >