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This 55 message thread spans 4 pages:  < <   1   2  [3]  4  > >  
  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 21:44 on 04 May 2008


You, by your own admission, don't bother having your music performed. And yet you seem to be completely full of yourself: I wonder if more people than just myself find this patently absurd.

Have you considered the possibility that - by actually doing things - you might gain experience and knowledge with which to form your opinions? And that your opinions might carry more weight should you do so?

I make music and have it performed regularly; in fact I've invested myself entirely in the artistic and economic risks associated with building a life in composition and creating something unique and real.

If you haven't the artistic conviction to follow through on your ideas about what music should be by having your work performed, by experiencing the vulnerability and fragility of public performance, and by contributing in a real way to the art of composition... then it'd be nothing more than common decency on your part to avoid insulting people who actually do these things.

Instead, you show yourself to hold the most artificial and presumptuous point of view. You attack serious artists while doing nothing but whining and spewing nonsense (mixed in with little factoids you seem to come up with by flipping through the 'Music, History Of' section of an encyclopedia) - can this be anything other than a remarkably transparent inferiority complex at work?

To cut to the chase: you seem to be little more than a sad windbag. Of the 90% of languages you reference as possibly going extinct in the near future, I'm sure many people who've had the bad luck to read your vacuous, self-righteous drivel hope that one of these is 'Forum Boorish".

Anyway, Scott, thanks for inviting me to post - but this is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. As our good friend Blitz would say:


  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  Misuc at 22:27 on 04 May 2008

I do bother. I just don't succeed. All i said was I'm not blaming anybody else for not doing me favours. Unlike you I can't afford to "take economic risks" i.e. pay for my own performances. Also I have not said a word about myself in this whole discussion. I have spent my whole adult life performing, teaching and learning and every day of it composing. I note that bmh has decided to hide his profile from everybody, so nobody is in a position to call his bluff. By the way there is not a serious artist that I have attacked.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 22:50 on 04 May 2008

Ooops! ...whose "bluff is being called" now?

Benjamin Mueller-Heaslip
Age: 32
Height: 5'11"
Hair Colour: Black
Race: Mixed Caucasian
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Founder of and composer for the Parkdale Revolutionary Orchestra

I'm proud of who I am, and of what I do. It's a life's work and the result of years of determined effort. And it is a new model for creating and presenting music that challenges the conventional system I've found so damaging to the art of composition. This work exists because of my commitment to its creation. So yes: there is a serious artist you've attacked.

As for your nonsense about not managing to get your music performed, I suggest there's nothing that fails so surely as fear of failure.

"Now you say you're lonely
You cried the long night through
Well, you can cry me a river
Cry me a river
I cried a river over you

Now you say you're sorry
For being so untrue
Well, you can cry me a river
Cry me a river
I cried a river over you"

Really, I do feel sorry for you.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  Misuc at 22:58 on 04 May 2008

I have not attacked you - serious artist or not. You will find not one word spoken against you. I asked you to state where you stood when you chose to attack those who were making a stand against commercialism. I have noted that you still have not stated your position so that we could be talking about something real instead of you trying to trade personal insults and getting none back.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 23:11 on 04 May 2008

Some points for you to consider:

1) My position is fairly clear in the posts I've made. Rather than engaging the points I chose to make you launched into your abusive nonsense. You should full well expect to be abused right back and I'm very happy to do it.

2) Your idea about "making a stand against commercialism" seems to involve blowing flatulance on this forum. Sorry to point this out: but that's not really making a useful stand on anything. It's nothing but a pathetic attempt to puff yourself up by putting other people down and feeling superior about it. Dealing with serious problems requires commitment and real effort, not hot air.

3) You, as someone who doesn't actually do anything real, are as completely incapable of making any difference to what's happening culturally as you are incapable of offering any valid criticism of anyone else's perspective.

4) That - combined with the manifest fact that you're an obnoxious boor who's clearly poisoned his life by being too cowardly to pursue the things he claims to care about - makes continuing any conversation with you both pointless and painful.

Ergo: shove off.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  Misuc at 23:38 on 04 May 2008

Really bmh, remind readers what "points" you made. None of us can remember. And what "abuse" did I give back? Tell us. Don't be shy. You are not backward in coming forward when it comes to huffing and puffing. What points would you like to make now?

I have made a number of considered statements [and a few ill-considered remarks] attacking the trend towards commercialism.

[I also expressed admiration for the name "Parkdale Revolutionary Orchestra": not, of course, because an orchestra can make a revolution, but because it was a nice-sounding name which presents a certain sort of attractive image - at least for me. It reminded me of those pseudo hippy, pseudo Maoist, pseudo utopian commercial ventures of the '70s - so useless at the time, but nice as a brand-image, but none of this is to the point in the present discussion.]

bmh's comments and his quotes from beautiful songs composed by other people do not strike me as being relevant to the big issues we in CT are discussing.

Previously he was content to be a 'lurker' (his words). Now he decides to intervene in a discussion he has not tried to follow on the side of music-biz - but without giving a reason and to do so in a way that is trying to be as personally objectionable as possible. On top of that, after promising to remain a 'lurker' he asks one of those involved in the discussion he has been absent from to "shove off"!

i won't let him off the hook by asking him to go back to lurking. On the contrary i demand that he explains his attitude so that we can all join in. Meanwhile he can go on with his orchestra and I will go on with my music.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 23:53 on 04 May 2008

How big is your soapbox, Misuc?

If people need a reminder, I'm happy to restate what I posted before:

Regarding the commercial vs. art music issue that was being discussed, I wanted to bring people back to the principle of composers' own responsibility for the health of their art. My main point was that composers have clung to a cultural-economic system of presenting their work while society has changed in a way that makes that system automatically fail; and that composers should therefore be more concerned with finding new models for realizing their work.

I made this point because I think the attention given to the commercial vs. art music problem is a distraction from addressing real problems. It projects responsibility for the state of composition away from composers, falsely assigning it to the bogey men of economics. This argument takes the power to make music grow and develop out of the hands of its practicioners, and it's that sort of apathy that's caused the decline of composition as a socially important art.

I think it's a valid point to have raised.

And, since you also seem to want a refresher on how degrading your response to this point was, Misuc, I'll give you some quotes from your first response to my posting:

"Complaining about people who complain about commercialism is easy. It's all so f***ing easy! So what is your position on the social role of the serious composer? Have you got one? It's also so easy to say that they should 'redefine their art' whatever that means. What does it mean, brmh?"

"Are you going to solve this by fiddling around 'reinventing' yourself? Why not try and do something real?"

And you have the nerve to get indignant when you get your own back (plus interest due!)?

If you have some "big issues" to discuss (and I'm pretty sure that you do have Big Issues, and should probably discuss them with a professional therapist), please simply don't reference me. I don't consider any communication you could have to make interesting or valuable and have no desire to continue belittling whatever of you there is to belittle, which I suspect isn't much.

Hey! I sent you a link to my music - why don't you let me hear some of yours? Or maybe we can send each other photos of our penisis? I repeat: shove off, you raving lunatic!

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 01:19 on 05 May 2008

I'm quitting this forum. It's a sad place, and I don't want to see it. I will forget its existence tonight as I sleep.


Since we've gotten to understand each other so intimately through this exchange of "ideas" I want to make a proposal to you:

You should make it your personal goal to have your best music performed publicly this year. I know you say you haven't any money, but there are other ways to achieve this:

If you make an effort to get your best work to the chamber groups where you live and make personal (less personal than your exchange with me) contact with them something's bound to happen. If you don't live in a city where there's a lot of music happening you can reach out to what's happening locally and also check out the ensembles in the nearest city and see who might be interested.

And you can also be sure to get a performance if you get in touch with a University music department. You can get a student chamber group interested for sure - and contact the string / brass / woodwind instructors because they're involved in coaching the quartets and quintets.

Of course the kids'll screw it all up if you go that way, but at least they'll be giving it a go and I'm sure you'll find the live performance experience addictive and be more able to pursue it. I'm sure that you'll blossom as a person - inhaling inspiration and exhaling love for all humanity - once you've got this monkey off your back.

It doesn't take money to have music performed - not many people hire musicians to play their compositions (that's usually a recipe for disaster, I think); but by cultivating personal relationships of mutual respect with ensembles and performers you can do this for free. It just requires doggedness to make contact and the acceptance of the risk of failure.

But imagine talking with other composers on this forum about a successful show or commiserating over a failure with someone who understands what it's about - that's a lot better than getting all worked up over spectral peanuts, if you know what I mean.

Until you're having performances you're not making music. Just notes. There's nothing more frustrating and caustic to the soul than making lots of notes.


p.s. Should you still not manage to have your music performed despite making a real effort, you can still improve the world in a real way simply by stepping in front of a bus.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  Misuc at 15:14 on 05 May 2008

OK. Pity. But now he's gone back to lurking we can talk about something bigger and more important than me and my supposed 'problems'.

I've only got a small soapbox (not being able to afford a radio station), but a two-way conversation seems to flow easier that way than when mortals have to try and slip a word or two past a media controller's armed guards. Maybe that's because media controllers have to maintain their special 'cultural-economic system' at a superior level to the one the rest of humanity has to live under.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 20:01 on 05 May 2008

I've sent this note to the site administrator. I also want to make it public in this thread for those of you who've seen this absurd "meeting of the minds" happen. I very much hope that whoever's in charge of this site takes this issue seriously: I think it's shameful that a forum that should be a valuable meeting place for people who care about composition should be monopolized by a boor like "Misuc".

And what exactly is a "media controller", Misuc? I produce a podcast, you paranoid idiot, not run a radio station. It's free - anyone can do it - you don't have to be a member of the illuminati to start a podcast.

Hopefully whoever's running this will get around to deleting my membership so I'm not tempted to react to this moron again...

Dear C.T. Administrator:

I would like to express my disappointment with the behavior of one of your forum's members:

"Misuc's" mode of communication is not congenial to valuable discussion - it's a deterrent to anyone wishing to participate in your otherwise interesting forums.

If you refer to the topic: "I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos" ( http://www.compositiontoday.com/forum/44_1702.asp ) you'll see that he's driven off two new members by his obnoxious and aggressive behavior and also irrationally insulted several others. This may seem a small concern as "Misuc" is a full member while the two of us who've lost interest in the forum are not.

However, in the long-term view this sort of abuse will inevitably stop new members from forming enough attachment to the site to become full members. Also please consider the many people who will have certainly lost interest in participating in the forum by following this thread and seeing this senseless nonsense. Allowing members of your forum to behave this way is no way to engage new members or cultivate interesting dialogue.

In the interest of the long term value of C.T. I strongly suggest that you take a role in warning or potentially banning members who behave abusively. I'm sure the damage that people like "Misuc" do to your potential full memberships exponentially outweighs the 20 he's contributed to your potentially excellent site.

Please delete my account (ben@parkdalerevolutionaryorchestra.com) immediately - this is not a community I wish to be associated with in any way.

Best wishes,

Benjamin Mueller-Heaslip

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  Misuc at 22:30 on 05 May 2008

I think the late mbh is to be congratulated on doing the only thing such a loser can do. Even though he states that " this is not a community I wish to be associated with in any way." (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual) he is so concerned with "the long term value of CT" that he is ready to go back to "lurking" from the "cultural/economic system" he has imagined on his blogsite.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 23:40 on 05 May 2008

Well, until the admin gets around to deleting my account I suppose I'll just have to keep thrashing you. He's taking such a long time about it that I suspect he enjoys seeing you being so thoroughly ticked off. Perhaps you've had this coming for a while?

Let's do some review:

The fellow who started this thread is just a kid - his profile says he's 21 years old. I'd agree that he has a lot to learn about the art of music and what he might come to do with it: but he has the infinite potential to learn and grow. His future is full of possibilities.

He made himself vulnerable to you by posting on this forum and including links to his music, and you attacked him. At least the kid you decided to abuse is engaged in the adventure of finding out for himself what his life in music will be. Rather than choosing to offer him some constructive advice you attacked him viciously.

What good do you think can possibly come of that? It's not like you're taking on Microsoft or Disney - all you're doing is being cruel to a young guy who's probably never made a cent from his music. And the only result you might've achieved is convincing him that classical composers are just as obnoxiously insular as popular culture wants to paint them. Congratulations Sir Silverman! The world is safe from consumerism now... all thanks to you!

But, as I said, that 21 year old kid is at least trying to get his act sorted out. But you! You're just a want-to-be composer who's too afraid of failure to realize his work. And you haven't even the self-awareness to recognize how this has corrupted your perspective nor the integrity to do anything about it. The game's already over for you. You're coward, a failure, and a non-entity. News Flash: you're not a composer, Misuc, you're a pretender.

Here's a question I'd love to hear you answer: what have you ever done that gives you the right to degrade anyone else? Anything at all, Misuc? Maybe you could tell me when you've made yourself as vulnerable as the kid you just insulted, and how people responded to you when you did? Or perhaps you could let me know about anything you've contributed to the betterment of your art... anything at all? Just one single thing that you've done that gives you the authority to behave like this?

I'll be waiting for your answer, knowing full well that you haven't got one.

Oh look! I see there's even more to you than meets the eye. You also do this:

http://www.aaroncassidy.com/press.htm (right-hand column, middle of page)

...attacking composers who actually do risk public failure and rejection for the sake of their artistic vision. Is this is the only real relationship to composition you have? Belittling people who actually do the things you're too afraid to do? Degrading the work of others while not having the basic courage to put your own work up for criticism yourself?

That's just sad. It's also disgusting and immoral. Doesn't attacking people from behind a paper shield make you a definitive fraud and a coward?

Julian Silverman:

Hack Critic?
Faux Composer?
Presumptuous Twit?

Which of the above do you print on your business cards?

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 08:55 on 06 May 2008

To summarize, I have three concrete questions that I think deserve answers:

1) Referencing my last posting, I would like to know what you've done as an artist that gives you the authority to belittle others. On second thought, let me simplify this one: just let me know if you've ever done anything at all, publicly, as a musician. Frankly, I suspect you haven't because someone who's experienced the challenges of actually making music happen could never be so pompous and arrogant.

2) Also referencing my last post, can you please justify the obvious moral contradiction between your willingness to write negative reviews of other composers' work for the 'Tempo Review' while you yourself are unwilling to risk having your music publicly performed and criticized? And don't give me that crap about not having any money: we've already established the invalidity of that excuse.

3) About "Media Controllers". I'd really like you to explain what the hell you were talking about there.

These are important questions, very related to the genesis of this forum thread, and they clearly define the level of seriousness with which one can view your ideas. Except for the one about "Media Controllers"... that one's just curiosity.

I'm very much looking forward to your attempt to avoid answering the above,



p.s. You keep repeating the words "cultural-economic system" in a very strange, insinuating way, like it's a mantra or something... do you perhaps not understand what I was referring to by that phrase?

But you needn't be confused! I'm happy to explain it to you:

This concept refers to the pre-existing routes available to composers to present their work and develop their careers. These conventions are both cultural (because they include the mediums, venues, and typical audience for their work) and economic (encompassing the resources typically available for the composition and presentation of music).

I'm not, of course, referring to a codified system: this is a collection of traditions, conventions, and expectations for how things are done and by whom. It has the advantage of being a format that allows composers to direct their effort exclusively toward the creation of new music rather than the invention of new traditions and conventions. My position is that the advantages of this system are outweighed by its limits and that composers would do well to explore building new avenues for their work to be realized.

There, you see! I've answered a question that you (sort of) asked. Now will you please have the decency to answer mine?


p.p.s. What's this "Blogsite" reference about? I don't have a "Blogsite". Is that something "Media Controllers" ought to have? Should I invest in one then? With all these "Armed Gaurds" to keep up, I don't know if I can really afford any new ways to oppress you. I think I'll just stick with my "Radio Station" for now.

Sorry to run, but I've got to hook up with the Queen, the Pope, Bill Gates, and Tom Cruz now to discuss our plans to "Dominate the Earth" by building "Giant Killer Robots" on our "Secret Moon Base". Maybe you should "Get at Grip on Yourself"?

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  David Bruce at 12:42 on 06 May 2008

to all concerned, please let's keep the tone friendly and polite. By all means have a debate, but please no sarcastic digs, or agressive language to one another. That does nothing to progress the debate.

  Re: I look briefly for a topic like this but its about demos  bmh at 16:18 on 06 May 2008

This 55 message thread spans 4 pages:  < <   1   2  [3]  4  > >