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This 64 message thread spans 5 pages:  < <   1   2  [3]  4   5  > >  
  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  ruska02 at 06:21 on 12 May 2008

Dear Misuc please underline the actual hate words used in my posts so I may humbly apologise about this "bad attitude" and have amore WASP politically correct behaviour and please remember your post about Tan Dun and ask yourself why no chinese composer write a single line in this post...they dont care...we do ...

Ipsum Factum Verum Est
Let the music speak


  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Misuc at 16:25 on 12 May 2008

I have already quoted your malicious lies. Here they are again: "conservative of my own culture that has build its history (or better 50 per cent of the whole world art history) on christian sacred references that are daily raped buy muslims" Here's some more: "....Lang Lang and Tan Dun, or other Wangs....."

Please confirm or deny your fascist credentials

   Misuc at 16:25 on 12 May 2008

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  ruska02 at 17:28 on 12 May 2008

If these are what your underline as fascist

"conservative of my own culture that has build its history (or better 50 per cent of the whole world art history) on christian sacred references that are daily raped buy muslims"

I underline them once more and am proud of having been raised and taught in them and to belong to them
for all my artistic spiritual and social life...

about Tan dun , see your previous post
about wangs is the same that smith or rossi or not?

You are out of tune brother ...and a little big mounth I suppose


  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Misuc at 17:43 on 12 May 2008

So are you a Fascist? [A simple 'Yes' or 'No' will do.]

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  ruska02 at 18:29 on 12 May 2008

Absolutely not sweety... .-) you are a freelance offender instead

mors tua vita mea

hic sunt leones

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  scott_good at 19:58 on 12 May 2008


So much of what you say reeks of fascism. If you are not, then might i advise you of some language usage.

When referring to an entire culture, please don't say that they are rapists. This is disgusting.

More simply, when referring to an entire culture, do not use the word "them".

I have had the pleasure of knowing many proud Italian people, and I can say with a certain degree of certainty that A) you are not all the same and B) many would be absolutely horrified by your associating their culture with such a vile and hateful use of language.

I would also like to point out that your attempt to look all tough and cool by associating yourself with the Black Panthers is both ridiculous and inappropriate. How dare you find parallel with the importing of cheap goods from China and Asian composers winning competitions with the horrible plight of the African American people which was inherited in the 60's from 100's of years of American and European slavery. Your pompous knows no bounds.

Pride in one's culture that is defined by the putting down of others is weak - pathetic. As I have said, you could be offering something interesting and wise to these discussions. Instead you choose to spread hate.

Is it race that is your enemy? Or perhaps should we be talking about new paradigms with destructive ideals that touch all cultures? Let's talk about how commercialism is eating our planet alive. That indeed cheapness underlies all of what you and I despise. Cheap is a plastic bust of Beethoven for all to buy and perch on their mantle, revealing the culture and creative depth of a storefront window, easily attainable by stepping through the door wielding credit cards hungry and desperate for your business. Cheap is a new morality that pollutes everything it touches. It is a right (I deserve the lowest price), an excuse (well, it might not work after 4 months of use, but i'll just get another - quality is irrelevant), an ideal (can you provide the cheapest product? not best, but cheapest - if you can, you are a valuable member of society). and cheap is a weapon (if you even try to raise your wages a bit, we will take our manufacturing elsewhere because our junk is so easy to make - if you don't make/buy our cheap goods, we will bomb your a$$).

Let's talk about a forgotten work ethic - what is that Christian saying - idle hands are the devil's tool...perhaps it is Presbyterian in origin. At any rate, I'm not a religious man, but that saying has resonance. I'm sick of hearing the woes of the composer who isn't recognized because they wrote a few little songs and they think they are great. People who think composing for an instrument is hard - ohhh, you poor soul - cry me a river. Stop whining and get to work. Life is hard, being a musician is hard - this is good - it is what makes living exciting and have meaning.

Read Misuc's post from page 2 and learn to confront the issues that bother you (us?) with more profound thoughts than just spouting little hateful messages like thoughtless and immature graffiti. I do not agree entirely with everything he says (too pessimistic for my personality), but at least he is framing his ideas intelligently with care and actual insight. This leads to important discussion, not trivial bickering.

And at least take the time to spell my name correctly. It is a name which tells of my old world heritage, one that I am also quite proud of (without having to put others down).

Scott Alexander Good

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Misuc at 20:39 on 12 May 2008

I've been such a fool. How could I be so naive? There is not a single Fascist in Italy. Not even a fascist politician. Certainly not in the [profascist] government. Arch-fascist Fini a fascist? No. He hates fascism. He has told us that. Vicious fascist Bossi? The infamous Alessandra Mussolini? Of course not. Fascists do like to tell the truth. But they are all of them law-abiding folk - especially when their jobs depend on it - and it is illegal to be a Fascist politician in Italy. And what goes for the leaders has to go even more to the nonentities who are their fodder.

Every word that Ruska02 utters could have come directly out of a pamphlet by the sinister and frightening 'National Alliance' (which is of course not Fascist)

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Misuc at 10:01 on 13 May 2008

Well said, Scott.

Was I being too pessimistic? Perhaps I was. The rate at which musical 'languages' (e.g. specifically their tuning) are falling prey to 'World Music' commodification/globalisation is frightenening. Actually I suspect that it is too late for most.

I gave some examples of surviving ancient traditions in Western Europe (to which I could have added plenty more including from mainland Italy itself: such as the amazing 'Tralalero' mass improvised singing by Genoese port workers, recreating afresh the material out of which Monteverdi made the prelude to his 'Orfeo' 400 years ago. I don't know. [In any case it would be a bit arrogant to demand that they cling on to quaint old customs as a sort of museum exhibit to fascinate the curious connoisseur.]

It is for all of us to devise our own authentic 'traditions'. And in that quest, everything that humans have done is part of our collective heritage. It is there for us to use and develop in accordance with our current way of life and the one we are hoping to make.

At the level of society as a whole, this is an impossibly difficult political question: it boils down to whether and how we will find a way to run the world for ourselves without allowing a tiny minority class of parasites to ruin it all for us. In principle it is easy. Scratch the surface and nearly everybody knows what needs to be done and how to do it.

At the level of musical language it is even more amazingly easy to restore, renew and extend the scope and power of musical 'systems' and 'languages'. In evening classes even in England, I have had previously respectable citizens of all ages easily casting off their 'correct' demeanour and recreating the origins of music out of cries, catcalls, halloos etc. and developing dramatic/musical structures - it is stunning how quickly trained and untrained musicians can get sensitive to micro-tuning systems of Indian music, to improvising mediaeval 'fauxbourdons' and even 16th century 4 - 6 part polyphony right up to improvising in 12-note series ! (using, say, reordered plates on school metalophones etc.). It is only by doing that one begins to appreciate and usefully understand musical 'systems' and their potential. [This is something more fundamental than the particular devices and techniques which some composers have learned without a proper understanding of their creative roots].

The trouble is that such musical awakenings are dependent on the political/social answers - and not the other way round. [These sort of heavily subsidised evening classes were abolished long ago along with pension and welfare rights etc.]

But yes: I was being too pessimistic: a culture that still has time and funds for Nono's 'Prometeo' cannot be all bad. And there must be hope while there is a CT where you and I can contribute, and Luc Brewaeys, Kee Yong Chong and probably hundreds more whom I have not yet come across. [Incidentally it is this last-named composer who has got the model answer to the 'problem' that set this forum off: how to write for sheng]

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Nicolas Tzortzis at 23:31 on 15 May 2008

A lot of things have been said in this thread so far,and I do think that some of them were (at least) misplaced.But i am not going to get into that,there has already been enough oil for the fire.
I remember a couple of years back,or maybe was it last year,i am not sure,that the Huddersfield festival announced that its call for scores for that year's concerts would be an ensemble piece for: recorder,guitar,trombone,double bass and percussion(not sure about that last one).And I thought to myself:"who on earth has a piece for that kind of ensemble?" And why impose this instrumentation,while there are practically no chances of getting performed?They were probably asking for pieces to be written especially for the "competition".Some one would win,but my thoughts went to the other composers who would spend some months of their lives writing for that ensemble,and in the end get nothing.Just be stuck with a piece in their bottom drawer that would have practically no chances of ever getting performed or awarded.

There are all sorts of weird competitions or call for scores.Choral works that have to be 4 minutes long,based on a text by "one specific poet",or by a "left-handed writer/white/black/latino/gay/NY Yankees fan" you name it,or pieces that are supposed to be "hard,but not too hard" and so on.I once saw a call by a pianist that was looking for piano music by "gay and lesbian composers",that mentioned "I am actually short of lesbian works".And I thought "if I do send my work,how will he know I'm not gay?will I have to audition???". Most of them i don't even look at anymore.But i accept the fact that,if someone is giving away the prize money,he has the right to award or play whoever he pleases.
So,if the chinese paid money to the luxembourg sinfonietta,let them impose the sheng.Or if the luxembourg sinfonietta wants to "play it cool by putting the sheng in the instrumentation",let them.I recently saw a competition by the italian institute in japan,that asked for chamber music with voice,based on an italian text.Isn't that the same thing?asking composers in Japan to write in italian?But i personally don't mind.the world is big enough for everyone and everything.
And it would be only fair if some asian instruments become a part of "western" classical music,as indian classical music has been influenced by the western instruments.I personnally don't feel threatened.Things don't just change from one day to the next,just like that.
I just suggest we bury the hatchet,we shouldn't be calling each other names is this forum.I think...

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 10:13 on 16 May 2008

Nice post! In particular I liked this one "or pieces that are supposed to be "hard, but not too hard" Very funny But well yeah, Nicolas, I do agree there is space for everyone on earth. When I was writing my initial post in this thread I was in a different mood, see... However I don't regret a single word of mine just because a bonelessness isn't really my style. And global fusion isn't really my aim. I don't wanna fuse with anyone. I'd rather have alien cultures keep distance because this is the way of how we protect our own, Western European, traditions - whether one accepts that or not.

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Nicolas Tzortzis at 12:17 on 16 May 2008

The word "alien" is something one could argue.In a way,especially today, that boundaries are no longer visible.
If we thing about the different origins of all the instruments we use today,not all of them come from central Europe,or Europe for that matter.
The violin,the guitar,wind instruments etc,have their origins outside of Europe.But they came and were slowly assimilated,adapted etc.The same thing could happen with the sitar,the sheng or the chinese pipa.I happen to know a very good young italian composer who has a comission to write for lute,guitar and pipa.So these instruments could very well be part of our tradition in the future.
Besides,let's not forget one thing:In contemporary music,we have tried to enrich the classical instruments by using new playing techniques.Most of these playing techniques integrate more noise in the playing,as do in general some oriental instruments (bamboo flutes,nei etc) or some more traditional (folk) ways of playing.
And many composers (Crumb,Stockhausen,Kagel and others) have used very oriental colors in their music,either as a color,either through the instrumentation.Kagel's "Exotica" is the best example for that.Six percussionist playing non-european instruments.A saw that live last year and it is a masterpiece.Especially in the percussion domain,oriental instruments have been used for a very long time.Gongs,temple blocks,tam-tams etc,they are not western instruments,but they are now part of the western tradition.has our culture/tradition been lost because of these instruments?Has the Gamelan done contemporary music good or bad?All the non-western modes have given composers throughout the years an extra material to work with.Isn't the '60's phychedelic rock music influenced by oriental meditation and approach of time?isn't Stockhausen's "Stimmung" an "oriental" piece?
Once again,I don't feel threatened by any instrument.If I ever get to use the sheng or the pipa,I will try to do my best and write MY music,not chinese music.Composing is about being open-minded,and I think we should try to be just that.
This said,we also have to keep in mind that the socio-economic status of the world is changing.And after having "dominated" the world for some centuries,maybe it's time that the "white man" learns how it feels to not be Number 1.

PS.I haven't read all the previous messages,so I'm sorry if I have repeated things that have already been said.

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 14:47 on 16 May 2008

Hi Nicolas.

All right I've read you second cool post. But I'm not talking of some particular instruments. I myself own an extensive selection of various modern enthnic and experimental music with all kinds of instruments blend. It is obvious that instruments just like people, they grow, develope, interfer, transform etc. But when you saying something like "maybe it's time that the "white man" learns how it feels to not be Number 1", I don't quite dig it, I'm sorry. When you think of, say, Mozart, you realize there are no Number ones, cause he was and probably is the Number One. Well may be in Bolivia or Vietnam they have their own Mozart, I don't know but somehow I doubt it(...) The Number One place was well deserved, think of that before throwing statements like that (just please keep in mind we don't speak of bloody politics and all that corruption and bloodshed here, but art, the music in particular.)

Sure, today the world's altering its shapes, it definitely experiencing global adjustement. But the world, the human society was always doing that, experiencing those global adjustments. And see I just want make myself clear, which I believe I did. I don't wanna be a part of globalization process, this is my choice. And I'm not gonna listen to Chinese or New-Chinese or Euro-Chinese or any other alien music and its phantoms on a daily basis, no one will ever have me doing that. I'm just not interested in it. It's not mine. It doesn't strike me, it doesn't call to my heart, and to my spirit, so why should I? And because I shouldn't and I won't that means that I stick to my roots, and I guess I will never want to feel myself a sort of a cultural mutant.

When you read it through you'll see, people said a great many of smart things on this thread. The general tendency is that they try to convince me (while it feels like they really trying to convince themselves at first place) that I'm all wrong and that I should apreciate that global fusion of styles and traditions. But damn it, I do apreciate that without anyone telling me those obvious things!

See, one thing is to apply various exotic instrumentaries or scales or techniques so that to enrich or even to improve the texture of your score, and another thing is to submit yourself to a delusion of a global togetherness. Man, I don't wanna be a part of a global, this, earthly, mundane global, because to me this means a global depersonalization and the end of all.

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Misuc at 16:22 on 16 May 2008

Funny how the Fascists seem to have adopted Mozart as one of their own....... and how they can't stop themselves from giving out irrelevant [and grammatically incorrect] Latin tags....

I came across this blog of the 'Michigan State University chapter of the Young Americans for Freedom.' Most of the article was an attempt to justify the new Italian government's recent brutal violent acts against gypsies and African immigrants, but beside their love of thuggery they do seem to have a soft spot for Mozart!

"....As Western Civilization Crumbles .... This blog will continue to do its best to reaffirm and defend Occidental culture. In Jean Raspail's The Camp of the Saints, Mozart's music is a recurring theme. As hordes of Third World immigrants invade Europe and enslave Westerners, all that remains of the Western world is Mozart's music as it is played over the radio like how liberty was advocated over the radio through Radio Free Europe during the Cold War. To quote Jean Raspail's book:
All gone from the airwaves, all suddenly judged indecent, as if the threatened West were concerned with the last acoustic image it presented of itself. Nothing but Mozart, the same on every station. Eine kleine Nachtmusik, no less.
What was there in the world more Western than Mozart, more civilized, more perfect?
Just as only a few men of the West were willing to stand up for their civilization in Raspail's book, it seems that only a few people are taking a stand today. Among those contemporary Westerners who stand defiantly on the battlefield against the enemies of the West is the Michigan State University chapter of the Young Americans for Freedom. Pro Deus Quod Patria!..."

I prefer:

"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto". "I am a human being. I do not reckon anything human as alien to me".

This was written by an African slave, who was a famous playwright in Ancient Rome at a savage and cruel time [which was evidently somewhat less savage and cruel to blacks than Rome today. It also shows that even the Ancient Roman civilization was multicultural]

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  carlswanholm at 18:05 on 16 May 2008

Beethoven=Flemish, SP, tiny Negro("wf"), not any GER
Instant Love to

Aloha?'Albino'Aloha? ..u create hate.
(em me not)
AcornballA evilfa.!.rts !espressivo![heart&mind] to .L.A.
(Instant Death {0 as yet})-Instant Seizure-Permanent Scare (them atta

Retracted (good info though)

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