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This 64 message thread spans 5 pages: [1]  2   3   4   5  > >  
  Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 11:10 on 09 April 2008

Hello everyone,

Have you ever seen a Chinese or Japanese playing banjo? I doubt it. In fact this would've looked like a sort of cultural perversity, and this is just how recent Luxembourg Sinfonietta competition terms feel like - they feel thoroughly discriminating towards Western artists.

Here's their terms link and they posted their ad on CT:
http://www.luxembourg-sinfonietta.lu/html/composition_prize_2008/index.html

There are certain root traditions that people - in their chasing after so-called "dialogue of cultures" - are not to break. I've started writing for that competition but then I've realized how pointless the whole issue is. We, Western Composers, haven't studied neither Sheng nor other Chinese instruments in conservatories and music colleges while some [edited] who compose music got it simply by nature. One can hardly find how that bloody Sheng sounds! And even that I found it what's the point to compete with those who have it in their blood? So in fact we, Western Composers, have no chance in this manipulative shameful contest.

There are two persons in Jury of an Asian origin (I was prompted not to use initial [edited] term, so see, I had to obey), Mr (or Mrs?) Wing Wah Chan and Mr (or Mrs?) Wu Wei. So I wonder why if those multicultural chasers feel so damn fond of those cultures which we can only replicate and never comprehend, why don't they kick those remaining three Europeans out of Jury and make it just plain Chinese-Mongolian-Hong-Kongian business? What is this Pan-Oriental attitudes all about? Today we go Pan-Oriental just because we don't value properly our Western heritage and tomorrow we go Pan-Muslim and then we wonder why they blow our damn WTC's and chop off our heads afront of video-camera. I really hate it and I'm no freak, you may check my profile, listen to my music and see that I'm no fuckin' freak. Just I think if there is any respect for our roots remained we should boycott their bloody competition with all their thousands Euro prizes and leave them to their [edited] (By the way I'm no racist, and one of my best friends is Korean.)

Thanks,

Nicolas Wind


[Edited by David Bruce at 05:35 on 04 July 2008
Reason:
unacceptable language removed]


  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Gary Green at 13:47 on 13 April 2008

Hello Nicolas.

I found this video for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7HjQ-bSmU

I don't think she's miming!

As it's sometimes difficult to interpret the tone of a written piece, can I just say I'm not writing this in a 'heated' style.

I don't know what previous Luxembourg Sinfonietta competitions rules/composition criteria have been, but I imagine the attempt this time is to see what cross-cultural musical ideas come up. They probably wanted to provide a challenge to composers of both eastern and western backgrounds to see what they came up with. All the other instruments mentioned in the rules were originally western, so they've still got major links to the western musical tradition and therefore don't discriminate.

Maybe someone who doesn't have any experience of composing for the Sheng will come up with something fantastic and new, just because they've composed for it in a non-traditional or westernised way. With 3 European judges and 2 from China/Hong Kong they'll get a balance of opinion. Why not carry on with your composition for the competition anyway?

I have always been interested in the culture of China and Japan, but it doesn't mean that I don't value or am not proud of my western heritage.

Can I also say that some of your comments might make you sound racist to others, particularly the use of [edited out]. As you say you're not a racist it probably isn't intentional.

All the best, Gary


  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  ruska02 at 21:37 on 13 April 2008

"Today we go Pan-Oriental just because we don't value properly our Western heritage"

I am with you in every line and every word you have written every word...please do check our Intrasounus Manifesto and see how many point we have in common with your line. I tell you this story..last year in Settimane Musicali di Stresa (one of the most important festival in Italy Artistic Director Noseda the Conductor) the winner of the composition contest was an unknow japanese guy who came to us telling he had started listening classical music only two years before and for him Beethoven and Stockhausen were exactly the same...I can tell you tons of this events in which this far east robotical writers are really invading and raping our millennium centuries old culture...I want to say it out loud let's stop it and let's stop faking we are doing this to crossover cultures which should not... our wester culture must and should be not only respected and let grow on his own roots but
also the composers and performers raised in this genetic and cultural background should be given the right and respectfull chances to emerge..and stop giving prizes and money to Lang Lang and Tan Dun, or other Wangs that dissapear just the day after ..please stop it!.. if you think I am racist simply go to the east or islamic countries and write a no theatre o kabuki work and see what they say of you..but peraphs you have better chances writing sacred mottets in Islamic countries, or does classical music comes from some place different?

Roberto Rusconi Composer
www.intrasonus.eu

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 08:35 on 14 April 2008

Dear Gary,
Firstly, thanks for a video but it is just an exception which in this case doesn't prove the rule.

I guess I'm sane enough to recognize the organizers of this competition' original intention. At last it's their money they will give away to Japanese and Chinese winners. And by the way I don't believe in 'cross-cultural' based on discrimination of our own roots, and this is exactely what the terms of the contest are all about.

And why expect a fantastic, a miracle all the time. It's been proven for centuries that only the music idea itself may overcome Time. And what music idea may be striken out of an instrument like Sheng or any other alien instrument? Or how may a composer write anything valuable or just anything for an instrument which sound he barely knows not to mention its technics? So what's fantastic about that "crosscultural" fakery? It's just how some folks try to replace their infinite irreplacable hollowness with a momentary sensation.

As for the [edited], I think this is the way they call themselves, don't they? And even if I removed it or made it sound smoother, [edited]

Thanks,

Nicolas

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 08:46 on 14 April 2008

"Writing sacred mottets in Islamic countries" - that sounds lovely indeed!:)

Thanks for your response Roberto. Yes, it sounds very sad that we are being taken over those alien subcultures. But to have it changed one must struggle. So I'd suggest to pass along a petition of protest over the Luxembourg Sinfonietta competition terms so that other composers may share their mind and perhaps join in. And I suppose a few articles in the news wouldn't harm either.

Are there other composers forums on the net?

Thanks,

Nicolas
P.S. By the way I liked you Intrasonus Project idea. How does it go?

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  ruska02 at 13:02 on 14 April 2008

1) i AGREE WE ARE ALL WITH YOU...I ALSO HAVE A MASTERCLASS WITH 12 PARTECIPANTS FROMM ALL OVER EUROPE AND USA I WOULD LIKE THEM TO SIGN UP TH EPETITION AS WELL IF YOU PREPARE IT

2) LET' STRUGGLE

3) IT'S WORKING WHY DON'T YOU JOIN US SOMEHOW WE ARE WORKING TO 2009 PRJCTS SO
I WILL BE AT SOUNDWAVE FESTIVAL IN BRIGHTON WHERE THERE WILL BE A UK PREMIERE OF MINE
IF YOU ARE OVER THERE WE SHOUL MEET OTHERWISE WRITE TO ME ?


WWW.INTRASONUS.EU


"But to have it changed one must struggle. So I'd suggest to pass along a petition of protest over the Luxembourg Sinfonietta competition terms so that other composers may share their mind and perhaps join in. And I suppose a few articles in the news wouldn't harm either.

Are there other composers forums on the net?

Thanks,

Nicolas
P.S. By the way I liked you Intrasonus Project idea. How does it go?"

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Gary Green at 01:58 on 19 April 2008

Hello again Nicolas,
I was just thinking about your original forum post and had some other thoughts.

My comments below aren't intended to goad you in any way... just thoughts that I wanted to express, really.

When western musicians started to write music they can't have all popped up at the same time with the same thought on the styles or methods of their composition. They were probably all doing something different whether they were in Germany, England, Russia, Spain, France, etc. Composing using different instruments, scales/keys, styles.

Just because the countries were close in proximity (or mind set) doesn't mean that composers from these different countries would compose in exactly the same way. Their immediate cultures influenced the music they wrote and therefore their compositions were different.

There must have been (and still are) cross-cultural differences. But they all get brought into present day Western composition. I'm not saying Vaughan Williams would have ever composed a concerto for flamenco guitar and castanets, but Western music is made up of such a varied background.

Why is the merging of such varied European cultures so different from the merging of Western and Eastern culture?

I understand that Eastern cultures use different instruments, scales/keys, styles etc. but somewhere along the way individual western countries had their own styles, etc. too

Thanks, Gary

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Misuc at 21:53 on 07 May 2008

I can't see the problem. You can buy shengs here in London from Hobgoblin (folk music instrument shop) they are also available on eBay for very cheap. It is true that the ones you can get easily are not fully chromatic nor have they the full 3-octave span which the competition calls for, but you've got an imagination, haven't you? You can hear this wonderful instrument on countless Chinese and Japanese CDs, so you can get a good idea of their typical sounds etc.

I do think that the particuar specified instrumentation of the competition piece is a problem, since, to my imagination, the combination does not blend or contrast well. In previous competitions they allowed for what I found exciting combinations of instruments which seemed to 'work' better with reference to various different traditions and the choice of instrumentation was more flexible. But other than that, what is the complaint? It's a particular competition. You can't win them all.

   Misuc at 21:53 on 07 May 2008



  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 11:47 on 08 May 2008

Julian,
I have no desire of purchasing any instruments including Sheng just for the sake of entering some competition, even those, as you mentioned, I can find "on eBay for very cheap". Sure I do have imagination and my imagination tells me that Chinese and Japanese composers have far better chances of winning in this particular one just because their ear is accustomed to the sound of those instruments. Knowing just the scale and the way it sounds is a bit too little to write for solo instrument, wouldn't you think so? Also my imagination tells me that in fact there are no or almost no composer competitions in China or Japan or any other Asian country that would've engaged Western composers, or may be you've heard of one? Why is this so? Just think about it for a moment.

Certainly the point of my "complaint", as you call it, as far beyond some weird terms of some weird competition. My point is that that so-called fusion of cultures in reality turns into an invasion and Pan-Oriental moods and tendencies which I do not appreciate. And I'm sure thousands of other Western composers do not appreciate it either. Once or twice an year while having lunch at one of those countless Chinese restaurants, this is how often I need to listen to Oriental stuff. It's foreign to me so why should I or anyone else try to appreciate it? Perhaps you can tell me why?

There are some facts to it, check out the WINNERS of this one
(12,000 Eur prize):
http://www.tarragona-music-competition.org/angles/angles.html#
and this one ( "electro-acoustic, analogical and digital music" section,
(the 1,000 Eur prize, the only prize in this el/ac cathegory):
http://www.taukay.it/en/archive/2006sesta.html

And there are dozens and dozens facts one can find of how Europe and the US - just for the sake of their own economical interests and out of their basic arselicking nature - let 'emselves get ripped off by chengs mengs and all kinds of pengs. If you think this is all right, think this is healthy, then sure go ahead, buy shengs on eBay, write bunch of a la Dance of Cherry Blossoms or Crystal Innocence or how the hell they like to call their sugary tunes and ... well, and be happy!


  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 11:56 on 08 May 2008

Hello Gary.

Well you understand we can go on philosophizing endlessly... But here's my question. You say, why is the merging of such varied European cultures so different from the merging of Western and Eastern culture? But let me ask you, WHO said or WHY should they merge?

Thanks,

Nicolas

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Gary Green at 18:34 on 08 May 2008

Hi Nicolas

"WHO said or WHY should they merge?"

I'm sure no-one said this merging should happen, or why. People just pick up on things from other cultures that appeal to them, whether it's through travel, the media, or other exposure.

I know this isn't about my personal preferences, but from my personal point of view there are aspects of Oriental music that just appeal to me. You'll often find me playing all the black notes on the piano ;-) There are also some aspects that don't. I don't know why. Obviously enjoying some aspects must affect the music I write. I think different people from the same culture can be mentally and aurally tuned into different things - even though the core culture is the same.

I do understand what you're saying and where you are coming from, but I don't have a problem with crossovers in different aspects of culture. I'm sure that pure western music will continue to develop without the Eastern influence, and obviously it should do. There are going to be more western composers who aren't influenced by Eastern music and vice versa. Influences from different cultures just provides a slightly different path for people to go down as you know, whether that's music or other aspects of culture.

As I've said in my other posts I'm not trying to wind you up about this, and I hope I haven't.

All the best,

Gary

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  Misuc at 10:32 on 09 May 2008

Statistics: I actually looked up the lists of composers/winners in the two composition competitions which [edited] sent us links to. In one of them, out of 15, two had Chinese-sounding names, in the other 60 composers were listed, and only one of them had a Chinese-sounding name. Bearing in mind that these were woldwide competitions, and considering the relative proportion of the Chinese and other populations, and the amount of original work being carried out, I would say that this looks like discrimination AGAINST the Chinese.

I think the phrase [edited] should be removed from this site. The colour of a person's skin has nothing to do with their prowess as a composer. So too should the name-calling "cheng, meng, peng" etc. since a composer's name also has nothing to do with his/her qualities as a musician. And this is a site about composers.

I believe that these remarks go beyond 'fair comment', and should be the subject of disciplinary action. It may be that they were not intended to incite racial hatred (which would, of course, be a criminal offence) but they do go beyond the 'normal' hurtful insults and bullying that are passed between members of this forum towards attacking others on the basis of their race. This should not be allowed on this site.

Incidentally the remarks about sacred motets in Islamic countries (which is entirely irrelevant to this issue, except if interpreted as a racist slur) are out of place. There is much beautiful Christian music among the copts of Egypt, the Syrian Christians etc. Also, there would be no 'Western' music without Islam. Apart from their roots in secular folk-traditions, mediaeval musical forms [including the motet] arose out of developments in musicology and musical science, instrument design etc.) that originated with the Islamic civilisation of the period. [Of course this civilisation would not have taken the form it did without that of [European] ancient Greece. But then the Greek civilisation was itself a natural growth from various Asian and African civilisations.....] in other words the hunt for ethnic, racial, cultural or religious purityis futile. We are all a mix anyway.

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  windart at 17:05 on 09 May 2008

Well, the words like "windfart" is a personal offense, so I don't think I'm really willing to continue this 'discussion'. You are welcome to listen to my music and see that there is neither "windfart" nor any other kind of fart involved in it. Here you go http://www.nicolaswind.com See I'm not even gonna call you 'Missuck' or 'Missucker' which I can. But I won't. But what I really want is to listen to your stuff, Mr Brilliance, since at first you provided us with an ultimate solution of solving the problem of any competition by purchasing competition' instruments and now you so brilliantly introduced us to the very basics of music history.

I didn't try to offend any race or any breed. My concern is about rapidly growing Pan-Orient (and Pan-Islamic) tendencies in daily life and, as a logical consequence, in the arts, particulary in classical music, that took place in the past couple of years. I do not appreciate it. And this is entirely my business how I call it. And there is no one out there to have me appreciate that. So you see there was no reason to make all that calculation in order to draw a conclusion about some mysterious discrimination of Chinese. That's really odd. Let Chinese compete among themselves in China. What the hell do we have to do with them? First their flooded Europe and both Americas with their cheap poor-quality goods and now they flood the world with their cheap poor-quality "new classical music"... and guess what, foolished Europeans and Amercians buy it from them[...]

All right I guess I should wait for your brilliant music to come. In fact I just can't wait to listen to it! 'Cause as you just mentioned fairly that "this is a site about composers" not about the farts, dear Mr Brilliance.
[edited]

  Re: Discriminating Pan-Oriental Terms of 7th Int`l Composition Prize 2008  scott_good at 19:25 on 09 May 2008

mr wind,

i agree %100 with misuc, fart jokes and all (i thought he went quite lightly on you actually). i found your post very offensive and with ugly undertones of violence. and as per usual, mr rusconi is in there with a few racially divisive quips (to bad roberto...what a disappointment. you could be offering some valuable insight into this great art tradition, but you soil your presence with these insidious remarks).

to be clear windart: you have made it our business by posting on this forum. and, whether you intended to offend a race or not is irrelevant - you did, and with flying colours.

listen to my music if it makes any difference. i dare you.

scott



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