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This 29 message thread spans 2 pages:  < <   1  [2] > >  
  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  lawes at 03:53 on 18 January 2008
 

still too busy to contribute to this at the moment (weekend hopefully, had too much marking and lecture/class preparation to do, today I shall be teaching my composition students how to solve "non quantifiable problems" via "General Morphological Analysis", which sounds "complicated", but isnt, not for music anyway)

http://www.swemorph.com/ma.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphological_analysis

I`ll print out the ISP manifesto for them also, see what they think.

  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  ruska02 at 06:00 on 18 January 2008
 

Thanks for the important contribution .
I will be really thankfull if you could let me know what
some of your students outcome will be
Very young student sometimes are freeer than old "sheeps"

Roberto Rusconi Composer
www.intrasonus.eu

btw may some suggest me any other web site where
I could post the Manifesto and have a decent feedback?
sometimes seem that the composers visiting this site are too busy writing
to consider usefull some thinking about it .



  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  lawes at 12:59 on 19 January 2008
 

No probs re contribution etc, I like this idea of a sincere fine art music manifesto, so "unfashionable" at the moment, which is not always an indicator of value, but in this case I believe it is.

Didnt get a chance to discuss it in class yesterday, will do in music history/context next week, the manifesto as an example of current musical discourse. It is only an FE/college music course not degree level so many basic things are missing from their knowledge (ended up discussing simple tonal root progressions yesterday for about half the lesson).

Re other places to discuss contemporary music, cannot recommend any sites/forums (this is the only decent one I have found so far) however there are contemporary music "google groups" and some on Facebook and Myspace etc, but the admin is poor on many google groups, loads of spam (was when I last checked anyway), and Facebook and Myspace are more about editing one`s profile, doing movie quizzes etc, productive discussion about music is minimal.

Still might be worth posting the Manifesto in such places though, many more "readers" than "posters" as is generally the case online.

Will try and post this weekend with a few different English versions of it, see what people think etc

  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  lawes at 20:41 on 21 January 2008
 

Been working on the ISP manifesto a bit over the last day or two, nothing to show for it other than some fragmented lines of text, I might have to try a different approach (drop the form, rewrite it completely, then try and find a middle ground with the original, my goal is something concise/strong/self-evident, i`ll keep trying).



  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  ruska02 at 22:52 on 21 January 2008
 

Really thank for all the effort you are putting on this. Thanks from all you are doing from the Intrasonus crew and Composers worldwide, because they need it, even if if the do not know yet (scott good is gonna love this) .
www.intrasonus.eu

Roberto Rusconi Composer

We are musicians and our model is sound not literature or ..... (Grisey)

For a composer only two thing are vital counterpoint and analysis of the masters of the past (Berio)

  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  scott_good at 22:22 on 22 January 2008
 

Roberto, are you suggesting that i don't live a virtuous musical life?

Perhaps you would care to murk around my files and dig up more stuff you don't like, and use to insult me further?

And, honestly, do you think that you live up to your manifesto more than I?

Scott

  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  lawes at 00:09 on 23 January 2008
 

[*avoiding the Roberto/Scott spat]

Regards composers being somewhat mute...

One thing amazes me: why do music students, especially those in university, not write about music. I often meet youngsters who complain about symphony programs (which present always the same twenty works), or about the prices of admission to concerts, or of the "hoch" high price of printed music, or of the lack of performances of American and contemporary composers; or about the preference which concert managers give to performers before the works themselves. They complain, but why to me and not publicly? Why do they not write about their needs?

Arnold Schoenberg
http://www.schoenberg.at/6_archiv/voice/voice7_e.htm

Schoenberg also said (might be paraphrasing this a bit)... "Only fools fear being made fools of, they fear being recognised for what they truly are".

Quote either from his Theory of Harmony or Style and Idea (cant remember which, its been a while since I read them, tried looking online for the quote but cannot find it)

Taken together, if you want to achieve anything you have to be prepared to look stupid, reminds me of an old chinese saying..(again, paraphrased probably)

"He who asks is a fool for five minutes, he who does not ask is a fool forever".





  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  scott_good at 01:37 on 23 January 2008
 


lawes,

i'm glad you are above the silly spat - mature - i, on the other hand, love to argue and beat my chest like my little 2 year old! oh well, it takes all kinds i guess...

at any rate, i would like to add a couple of thoughts. first off, i think the mute composer is nothing different than the mute member of society in a microcosm. the mute person i think is more motivated by the fear of repercussions rather than just appearing foolish. they are concerned that by challenging ideas (or, presenting strong opinions), they may offend someone who could threaten their quest for security and place within society.

and honestly, they are right to be fearful. any institution will do what it takes to preserve it's ideal and station. Read "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Kline (as lawes quoted before - thanks)

also, i have a sneaking suspicion that if one took a survey of classical musicians, one would find that the vast majority are introverted, even though (according to DSM guidlines), %25 of society is considered introverted. thus, preferring to remain quiet in the shadows, the composer will only voice their concerns to a close few. nothing wrong with this at all, just that it doesn't bode well for public displays of solidarity like one might find at a football game for instance. well, hockey here...

go leafs go

scott

btw, might it also be possible that since the author of the manifesto has openly said that he believes there is no art in the UK and US, this might have an impact on people signing on, being that this is a british sight run and mainly viewed by british and american composers? just a thought...


  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  ruska02 at 06:38 on 23 January 2008
 

Thanks Scott and Lawes for keeping the discussion open but I fear there are a lot of people simply not caring to join the evolution here...

While I wait for Lawes precious remake I simply want to underline a few lines

I prefer American and UK composer to speak for themselves I think many o f them are real good and motivated
the simply should sometime do like the reinassance artist that really wanted to understand Florence or Venitian Paintings
exchange ideas where the baby was born

Another word needs to be said about canadians classical music and composers I do have really good friends over there
starting from the incredible Fibonacci Trio but the truth is and remains that the only "important" composer is Claude Vivier (I can't stand him) and now the sweet Ana Sokolovic which behind having won several times the prize as best canadian composer is serbian and has studied in old europe...she is simply taking advantage of the proper found your wonderfull gov gives to music which deserves it) anyway...

The Manifesto is open to be discussed about here not else

"Post Scriptum"

We old europeans need and must simply understand what is really we are loosing if we do not properly exercise cultural power over one of our most precious teasure and inheritances CLASSICAL MUSIC...not POP , ROCK, JAZZ, MELTING POT, DRUM AND BASS, ETHNO MIX, AND ALL AND THE OPPOSITE OF ALL IS GOOD but CLASSICAL MUSIC from Palestrina to Nono, from Bach to Berio, from Perotinus to Sciarrino, from Haydn to Ligeti, from....no room for concert for digeridoo and orchestra or sheng and ensemble (ISCM do you understand what I mean?)

Thanks
Roberto Rusconi Composer




  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  scott_good at 10:16 on 23 January 2008
 

(this is about the manifesto)

well, i don't agree. from what i have learned about composers such as bach, mozart, haydn, beethoven, brahms, chopin, debussy, bartok, janacek, mahler, stravinsky, schoenberg etc etc, they have all embraced a wide variety of folk/world genres into their musical palette. in fact, i would say that it has been that interaction which has had the most profound impact on the evolution classical music. question: was it a development of counterpoint which moved palestrina to bach, or rather was it a rhythmic/metric development? as you have sited the Kunst der Fugue for a point of departure, perhaps you should study the rhythmic constructions of variations on the theme. there are dances in there which give each it's unique character.

and for me, this is at the heart of what is wrong with your manifesto. not that what you have written has anything wrong with it, it is quite poetic really, but rather the in between the lines implications. the completely unnecessary exclusion of other musics from the conversation. that if music and indeed musicians embrace popular music as well as classical music, they are not allowed in the club.

but i will state openly that i think you misunderstand the classical tradition. it is not any one particular sound or idea, but rather an all embracing philosophy - the classical ideal: art based on a clear, rational, and regular structure, emphasizing horizontal and vertical directions, and organizing its parts with special emphasis on balance and proportion. for me, classical music is about embracing and understanding and openness to new ideas, not exclusion, bias, and being closed to the unfamiliar. it is about codifying, organizing, and structure - not style and genre.


  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  ruska02 at 10:52 on 23 January 2008
 

Thanks to your important contribution about the Manifesto. Scott Good.
Now is really important what you write because
I think people following the Manifest shoud focalise just
on the opposite of what you say and that I think as nothing to do with supreme music as we are defining it.
Beside Der Kunste considerations (this is not the place to discuss about it or about Palestrina counterpoint ; even if more than beeing a choir director I have written a five volume doctoral dissertation on it and I am frequently invited in Eu and UK to keep lecture on reinassance voice leading and counterpoint) I think the main mistake is just this one : to talk about thing you do not know and that you have studied in a rush [..how many semesters...or did you simpli read a couple of good books...written in english without ever beeing able to understand the importance of the WORD in Palesstrina music because you do not speak italian or latin ?]
I do not talk about kabuki or beatles influence..I am not legible for this.. but...I have spent five years studying counterpoint in Victoria, Gesualdo and Palestrina and directing choirs before entering my composition studies so...do you really think anybody after four semester may write and think classical contemporary music?

Let's focus on european tradition...
Let's focus on what is important and do not mix everything with everything...folk is only a blink in the eye of our classical culture..
Let's start underlining what is really that builds up our cultural and musical cathedrals...and study it...understand it
Let's be humble and listen to the people that have really given a life of study to this art
In italy we have a way of saying you cannot put one foot into shoes...

Intrasonus is about survival of pure art in a world of globalised mediocrity where reading means knowing, hearing means listening and above all where we sometimes forget our roots.

Roberto Rusconi Composer
www.intrasonus.eu







  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  scott_good at 11:53 on 23 January 2008
 

"Thanks to your important contribution about the Manifesto. Scott Good."

Thank you. I also appreciate that you have begun this post and your manifesto is a clear indication that these matters are of great importance to you.

To be clear, if we are going to be getting picky about credentials, it is Dr. Good ;-)

"Now is really important what you write because
I think people following the Manifest shoud focalise just
on the opposite of what you say and that I think as nothing to do with supreme music as we are defining it."

On the opposite of what? Please be specific.

"I think the main mistake is just this one : to talk about thing you do not know and that you have studied in a rush [..how many semesters...or did you simpli read a couple of good books...written in english without ever beeing able to understand the importance of the WORD in Palesstrina music because you do not speak italian or latin ?]"

My first interactions with Palestrina were at the age of 9 singing in a boys choir.

In high school, although completely lacking in formal musical training, i did study palestrina, bach, and des pres in terms of being able to sing each part, and try to develop the skills to hear the music simultaneously. This was born from a curious mind.

After a couple of semesters of "species" counterpoint in my first 2 years of university where i was studying both composition and trombone performance, I had the great fortune to study 16th century counterpoint with the eminent american theorist Robert Gauldin. I feel very fortunate that he was able to show the fallacy of species counterpoint, and taught his students that the true meaning of the music was in the setting of the texts, and the phrasing of the voices.

I have written several motets after - as exercises for learning. It was in my doctoral degree that my final theory project was to do a comparative analysis of all fugues in books 1 and 2 of the WTC.

Although I do not consider myself to be a theorist, i am a composer, i do not appreciate being talked to as if i am ignorant of these subjects. I have no doubt that your knowledge is deeper, but, i have spent a great deal of time of study and contemplation of these issues.

"I do not talk about kabuki or beatles influence..I am not legible for this.. but...I have spent five years studying counterpoint in Victoria, Gesualdo and Palestrina and directing choirs before entering my composition studies so...do you really think anybody after four semester may write and think classical contemporary music?"

Why do you keep presuming to know anything about my musical training?

I have studied classical composition for 11 years in University, my friend. My teachers include 2 pulitzer winning composers (schwantner, rouse) I have studied shenkerian analysis with Edward Laufer. I have attended lectures and master classes with Europeans lachenmann, manoury, goehr - i have performed under boulez and holliger. (and more - have no time to remember all now) I have premiered as conductor and trombonist dozens of works.

I started composing at the age of 12 - that's 23 years of composing.

"Let's focus on what is important and do not mix everything with everything...folk is only a blink in the eye of our classical culture.."

perhaps it is this kind of attitude is why contemporary music lacks connection to the world around it.

bach, haydn etc and most of the great composers understood clearly the importance of folk music. of this there is no doubt, even if you can lecture on the art of fugue.

let me make a recommendation to you. instead of giving lectures, why don't you take composing to heart, and study and compose music - all music. you are a young man just beginning adult musical life. you are in your artistic prime. why waste this on teaching? you should be creating. teaching is for old wise people who have something to say, not hungry young balls of fire.

and stop claiming ignorance of popular music. it should be your obligation to understand it. do you not understand that jazz music and it's child rock are derived in part from the classical tradition? when blues met classical back in the teens in new orleans? do you not understand that classical music came to america as well? that even though it evolved in different ways, it's roots are the same?

scott

  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  ruska02 at 13:04 on 23 January 2008
 

Thanks Dr . Good for the contribution to the Manifesto.
It seems you will not sign it therefore :-)
We anyway keep on underlining
... no melting pot...
... no time to loose mixing up jazz rock and folk , hip hop and techno (all great music but nothing to deal with
what we are looking for)... pure diamond ...
... no time either to study so many things only one life and so many classical european music to look at...
...a lot of time instead to give to modern science applied to music, to cultural deepness, to proper understanding abd above all to making some clearness around..
let other people talk now..
I am glad to have exchanged opinions with you especially Doctor Good, Professor Maestro Rusconi (who teaches only to earn a living and writes to live spiritually) invites you to consider the Intrasonus SPOT PROJECT NEXT ON THIS PAGES

ROBERTO RUSCONI composer

" I do not like to mix different types of music and traditions. I appreciate them all but I remain loyal to the one and only
classical enviroment I was born and raised in" Kurtag .



  Re: NEW COMPOSERS MANIFESTO  lawes at 20:51 on 23 January 2008
 

Will get back to this at the weekend, busy till then (not above the spat, just avoiding it, don`t feel there is much I can do/say to help matters).

Interesting discussion anyway, the manifesto is working :-)

This 29 message thread spans 2 pages:  < <   1  [2] > >